Constructing a D&D cartoon.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:03 am

I was entertained by all three shows, but am not emotionally attached to them. I even had to look up all the names. It's cool.

It's still an important distinction though. Exploitation/utilization implies that Jayne is a tool, like a gun or a sword. Guns/swords may be crucial to a violence-based plot, but are fundamentally extensions of some other character; basically, their only character developement is "works/does not work as expected." Either Jayne does more than that, or there are basically only two plot-driving characters on Firefly, Simon & Mal.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:20 am

Well, that was my point, actually. With very few exceptions, Jayne was little more than a tool to be taken out and put away at Mal's whim. He doesn't generate any plots, with the exception of trying to turn Simon and River in for the reward, and mostly exists to be the muscle or to provide comedy relief.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:59 am

Fair enough, but then the same applies to all of the rest of the cast, with the possible exception of Zoe, who is sometimes a surrogate Mal. And while that's internally coherent as an arguement, it doesn't feel right. That show had more than just 2.5 characters.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:17 am

Yeah and most of those characters had more personality and motive than Jayne. Jayne's sole purpose was to use violence to solve problems (like pool, as Inara observes) and to provide a subplot to one episode.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:35 am

Compare him with Kaylee or Wash though. They all have a lot of funny banter, but basically each of them has only their one trick. River and Book are wierd, but basically have no unique tricks. Mal doesn't seem to even have a trick (but does generate plot), and Zoe is a lesser Mal. Simon has a very specialized trick and also generates plot.
Inara is also a one-trick pony, but since her trick is social-fu, it gets more screen time.
(Above is by assertion, feel free to dispute.)

With that groundwork, the difference is basically "does/does not generate plot", and that's more of a function of writing than inherent to the characters. For example, Book's only real contribution is that he's super-mysterious. That's basically the same background as Jayne; it just gets played up less.
As for motive, I dispute that more complex is inherently better. Believable is better, but that's a threshold, not a scale.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:30 pm

Jayne isn't mysterious though (other than Jayne town).

Book was mysterious/psuedo-religious (basically Cleric of party).

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:27 pm

Slade wrote:Jayne isn't mysterious though (other than Jayne town).

Book was mysterious/psuedo-religious (basically Cleric of party).

Oh? How much about his background do we know? Aside from Jaynetown, and that his mother knits, not that much. Whereas we pretty much know that Book was an alliance operative. They have equally many opportunities for their pasts becoming plot hooks.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:52 pm

*Forgive me, I don't read TV tropes much, and might totally miss an obvious instance to call something a "Magical Girl".*

I don't think I like the cast being "Pretty", I like the cast being mostly humans, with 2 "Others" thrown in. The "Others" should be 1 super common elf/dwarf/halfling and 1 "New guy".

Super Common- These will take like 15 seconds of explanation as to who they are. "In this setting we use forest elves, not magic elves" or "In this setting dwarves are vikings not Scottish". The Super Common I pick are elves, unless you do a halfling rogue. Even then, I'd be wary. Dwarves- Too gruff, and if they aren't 50ish, drunks, and super gruff grognards explode. They are out. Halflings- Yes [earthbender girl] is smaller than the others but she uses [earthbending magic]. I feel like the "Halfling who physically competes with things that much bigger than them" is too much of a joke character to be a main character in a series. Exception being halfling rogues. I also object to them because halflings look just like people except smaller. So you have to establish every episode that the character isn't a midget or young child, but a halfling or people forget/tuned in late and didn't know. By default this leaves elves.

New Guy- I want this race to show off the non-traditional fantasy races in DND. Warforged, Thri-kreen, dragonborn, whatever. No matter what it ends up being, they need to have a totally alien world view.

Classes- I'm not against a DMF, but I don't think they should be the main PC. A second in command is totally fine.

Episode 1- Two PCs have known one another forever. One is studying to be a wizard at [hogwarts] and is awful at it [Main Character, possibly girl]. The other is a lancelot paladin, probably in the militia. Probably has some artifact item, but instead of a weapon I like the idea of a shield. Wizard Girl is basically at the end of her rope on wizard exams, when inverse warlock happens. Some heavenly entity grants her warlock/sorcerer powers and explains she is the chosen one to defeat evil. She goes on [quest] and paladin tags along.

Episode 2- PCs arrive at elf village and find evil warlocks terrorizing it looking for [artifact the PCs are looking for]. Introducing main villain arc, and the PCs can save the day. Elven archer at first is hostile, because elves live in the woods and don't like people, but the PCs win them over. At this point clone Aragorn but make him an elf and probably not a king. (Note we now have "Magic Girl" "Sneaky woodsy guy" "Holy Warrior" along with magic/bow/sword combos.)

Episode 3- introduce our dragonborn/other PC. Probably as a villain leading a group of bandits. Initially they totally stomp the PCs, but by the end of the episode the PCs find them in danger from a [dragon] and manage to save the leader. He decides to join them, and elf is distrustful. His thing is mostly "I am a dragonborn" and probably has a mix of barbarian and rogue levels.

Our PCs are
1- Relatively smart, but not super genius, Magic Girl. Who probably tries to be smarter than she really is. Human and main PC. She has warlock powers and can do "Magic". She might know a few magic spells, but mostly has [warlock fly] and eldritch blast. Struggles with PC 2 over who is the leader. Overall she is the leader.
2- Paladin. Human guy. He has paladin powers, melee combat and some healing spells. He has the "Heart of the Team" role as well as the main mele dude. I like the idea of a guy with heart of the team, and if you have a female as the leader, you have to switch things up. Spiritual heart and the second in command.
3- Elf Ranger. Guy/Girl doesn't matter. This PC is the ladies man/slut. Uses a bow, and knows woodland stuff. Introduces nature religion and is also basically a druid lite. As I go, I think this PC should probably be from a noble house. So you can bring in the whole "I don't know this peasant stuff" angle. Sort of mean, and probably doesn't appreciate the other PCs. Most of the adventures take place in the woods, and so they rely heavily on the elf.
4- I like a thri-kreen or dragonborn over warforged and I'd also like to have this PC be a guy. Their main thing is that they are a brutal warrior with less skill than the paladin but more strength. Uses a two handed weapon, and has a small mix of rogue talents as well. Can sneak almost as good as the elf. Yes you run the risk of no one liking cyborg*, but I think if you go all out you end up with a beast or nightcrawler, two characters who have a huge following (But not big enough to overshadow the main PCs).

*Cyborg was a person who was ugly. Beast is a monster who is almost human.

Note this is 4 PCs and not 5. At this point I bring back up our paladins ancient shield. Its a family heirloom and haunted by the ghost of his GGGG.....Great grand father. The last person to gain [Magic Girl]'s powers. He gives sagely advice, and can provide quests. He also can be disappointed in his ancestor, and assumed it would be him who got [good warlock powers].

Edit in***
The GGG in the shield, can even come out of it later on in the series, again as a youth, and fight alongside the PCs as some form of inigo montoya style PC. Dashing, rapier, light armor.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:58 am

So I've been going over ensemble casts of action-adventure fiction again and one thing really strikes me. Yes, I know I touched upon it much earlier but this point bears repeating I feel.

Despite the characters being supposedly best bosoms, these people really don't have anything to do with each other for the most part.

I mean, if you stick Raven and Beast Boy together in a room with no fighting otherwise you might get some drama/snark depending on the episode. If you stick Starfire and Cyborg together in the same room you get blank staring. What the hell do Chad and Ishida talk about when Ichigo isn't there? Does Toph and Sokka have anything in common other than some gentle snark?

I would really like to see an action-adventure ensemble cast where everyone in the primary cast had reasons to interact everyone else independent of plot. The interactions don't necessarily have to be positive, but they do need to be interesting. And yes, this means that before you even start the plot proper you should come up with at least three things for each character for them to talk about/fight about/angst over with another member of the ensemble without the aid of another person.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:35 am

Lago wrote:Does Toph and Sokka have anything in common other than some gentle snark?

Toph was considered a potential romantic interest for Sokka, and she does all the stuff that implies she has the hots for him. Including strategic blushing and genre appropriate huffiness. Sokka ended up getting back together with Suki, but had that not happened it is entirely possible that he would have gotten romantic with Toph. Certainly the internet has never let go of that possibility.

But your larger point is taken:

Lago wrote:I would really like to see an action-adventure ensemble cast where everyone in the primary cast had reasons to interact everyone else independent of plot. The interactions don't necessarily have to be positive, but they do need to be interesting. And yes, this means that before you even start the plot proper you should come up with at least three things for each character for them to talk about/fight about/angst over with another member of the ensemble without the aid of another person.

I don't think it needs to be three things. But it should be at least something. Too often these shows have essentially non-ensemble casts, because they don't have functioning relationships between many of the characters. Teen Titans can have a Cyborg episode, but it can't have a Cyborg/Starfire episode. And that hurts potential plots.

The show is going to be finite in length, and you're going to be able to add metaplot later. So once you have a episode starring each character and an episode featuring each pair of characters and their relationship - that's 15 episodes clicked off. Since you'll want some plot episodes and some monster of the week episodes and a hot springs episode, that's already everything you can fit into season 1 (even if you get a full size American season and not one of those weird half-size Japanese ones). So when you're concepting things out, you really only need one available story to tell with any particular pair of characters. You'll want to expand on that if you get Season 3, but for Season 2 you could seriously revisit a few of the same relationships. The twist doesn't have to be that the characters are interacting about something different, the twist could be something else entirely (like this time the Dwarves are in the wrong, or whatever).

-Username17

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:25 pm

Interesting discussion. Two things.

I do agree that you can't make a Fighter guy interesting without either giving him artifacts, which sucks, or going full martial arts/weeaboo level, which is already covered by the Monk. And Paladins are more interesting/have more plot hooks built in.

Speaking of the Monk, I would make him a Dwarf, because if you make it a halfling female it will look too much like Toph. Having a character being a copy of another character isn't good, unless is a broad archetype. So:

Human Paladin.
Elf Druid.
Dwarf Monk.
Wizard(any race, can double as Warlock, Sorcerer, or w/e).
Assassin(any race, can double as Thief/Rogue).

Is what sounds best to me. Also, fuck Bards.

In specific to the Wizard and the Assassin, you can make one the "lighter guy" and the other the "darker guy". You can have a sheltered, friendly Wizard and a brooding, Wolverine-esque Assasain. Or you can have a brooding/conflicted Warlock/Sorcerer and a friendly, Robin Hood-type Rogue.

Of course, those being extremes of a sliding scale allows for character growth, as long as it doesn't turn them into a completely different person, which is a trap that alienates those new to it and that many works fall into.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:40 pm

I'd go with a Paladin lead, too.

This is actually sort of close to a campaign of mine that's on hold until the players can get back to the same schedule.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:23 pm

Now, the sex issue. I still would go with "3 males, 2 females" and, let's get real, female leads don't sell too well, unless they are the lone protagonists or are in an all-women team.

So:

Male Human Paladin. The Hero.
Male Elf Druid. The Lancer.
Female Dwarf Monk. The Bruiser.
Male Human Wizard. The Smart Guy.
Female Human Assassin. The Dark Magician Girl.

The Assassin is negotiable to be a Tiefling, but 3 humans, an Elf and a Dwarf makes the race issue more simple.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:02 pm

Gx1080 wrote:
The Assassin is negotiable to be a Tiefling, bu-

Tiefling.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:09 pm

Let's talk cast/race calculus for a bit, going from previous page.

One, gender ratio. Assuming a 5-person band, you can have a ratio of 0/5, 1/4, or 2/3. 0/5 and 1/4 are right out. Leaving you with 2/3. I recommend that you only have two boys because it helps draw comparison away from other ensembles; while you can find 0/5 and 1/4 girl-favored FMBs, the only 3/2 I've ever seen was Runaways and that's just intermittently.

Secondly, I think Frank was on to something earlier when he said that it might be best to start out slow with just humans. But you also don't want to miss the opportunity to have exotic human races; Starfire and Raven (and to a lesser extent Cyborg, but he doesn't have many fans

) milked their non-human heritages for all they were worth. The trick I believe is that Starfire and Raven were able to downplay their non-humanity until it became important for the plot. Raven had like one episode where the fact she was non-human was even vaguely important until the fourth season and Starfire generally did it as a once-or-twice an episode thing, otherwise she was just a funny foreigner.

So my brilliant genius solution? Instead of elf and dwarf, I recommend halforc and halfelf. I suppose you could do halfdwarf, but assuming that people could even grok such a thing (Dark Sun fans are a minority and I doubt derro are all that popular) you're missing out on being able to have a character that has a bridge to the goblinoid races. This is so that you can make it such that when the plot settles down for a bit, you could bust out the 'oh by the way, this is my beloved orc village and my mother is the chief' bombshell. A couple of other considerations to be had: you probably don't want to make all of the physical melee people the same gender. Meaning that the monk and paladin can't be the same gender. So going back to the paladin again, you're faced with two problems:

A) The leader being a powerful frontline male is a cliche.
B) The friendship-speech giving, caring, healing, most-responsible person being female is also a cliche.

As I said on the front page, it's a pick-your-fucking-poison motherfucker situation. Personally I don't think it makes much of a difference, since this is a rare situation in which one cliche will negate the other.

One final thing to talk about. The wizard's race. As an aside, while I would actually like for this person to be a necromancer, the problem is that the moral guardian groups would pitch a fit at having a kid's hero do things like summon spirits and animate dead people. This is actually a pretty big problem, since you need a Dark Magician Girl type like Riku/Raven/Raistlin/Shadow/Akiza/etc. and you can't rely on just class to provide this. Meaning that this needs to come from race.

The obvious solution would be to make this person a tiefling. They have just the right amount of diabolism and otherness. Which is fine except for the fact that if this character is female you will immediately get Raven comparisons. You might get to dodge it if this character is male, but demon + wizard + angsty brooder of party is still probably a bit too close for my comfort. If the character is female you're probably going to want to use a different race. I suggest warforged actually, because people love characters who angst about how they lack emotions and aren't real humans and learn to laugh and love. Of course the master caveat of they have to be pretty still is in effect, meaning that they will have to look more like an almost-human robot like KOS-MOS or Data rather than the Eberron robots. Still call them 'warforged' or 'homunculi' though.

So, with all that in mind, here are two possible cast calculi you can go with:

Cast A

Female Human Paladin (uses a weapon that can get around censors without neutering her fighting ability, such as lances on foot, hammers, or even a shield bash)
Male Halforc Monk
Female Halfelf Druid
Female Drow Assassin (same deal as the paladin; uses needles, shuriken, crossbow bolts, and gas. Can fall back to daggers)
Male Tiefling Wizard

Cast B

Male Human Paladin
Female Halforc Monk
Female Drow Assassin
Male Halfelf Druid
Female Warforged Wizard

Cast C

Male Human Paladin
Female Halforc Monk
Male Drow Assassin
Female Halfelf Druid
Female Warforged Wizard

Cast D

Female Human Paladin
Female Halfelf Druid
Female Warforged Wizard
Male Halforc Monk
Male Drow Assassin

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:37 pm

I don't get female warforged. I think it could clash with perceptions - people aren't even going to see gender in a mostly-robot. 'Gender-neutral' with male implications is probably best. Unless you really do go the KOS-MOS style robot, but that's... not very authentic to the setting. Which is fine and not-fine. Too human is weird for D&D, too non-human will make it a difficult female character.

Also, in lieu of having a strong female lead like the female paladin examples (I'm not being sexist, demographic marketing is sexist), it'd be better to have two strong leads, female and male. It's pretty hard to maintain a strong solo female lead. It is not too hard to maintain two roughly equivalent leads who happen to be opposite genders. E.g. female human paladin, male half-orc monk. You might not want to make them both frontline types, though. Or rather, not frontline heavy types.

I can't say much about half-orcs. There are a few races that, somehow, completely fail to flavorfully appeal to me as a player, so I'm just going to stay quiet about them because I have no way of gauging how 'good' a character a half-orc would make. Or a dwarf. Or a half-elf, to a lesser extent. Those races just have limited appeal to me.

Hm... I think the first decision point is solo male lead, or duo male/female lead (and emphasis on who)? And if you go duo, what class pairing? Presumably, it should be compatible enough that the two can operate together in the same scene (or camera shot, even), because they are the leads and that's just sort of natural. But not so similar they're doing the same things. The stronger of the two leads should be familiar - a grounding point. Human. The second can be something else, even something weird. And then you fill out the rest of the party with whatever you want.

Female Human Paladin (Good for goodliness sake!) (stronger lead)
Male Tiefling Warlock (Glaivelock?) (I AM ANGSTY, HEAR ME... meh) (strong secondary lead)
Male Hale-elf Druid (Calm and cool, duh)
Female Drow Assassin (They're a good person inside, but telling them that may get you stabbed)
Male Warforged Monk (Kung-Fu Spock + if I only had a heart...)

I believe I just walked into like sixteen different cliches there. Which is impressive, because I only had five characters to do with it. I'm not happy with the secondary lead. He's... lame and generic. But none of the other characters seem like they would fill the role appropriately. Alternatively...

Male Human Paladin (strong lead)
Female Drow Assassin (strong secondary lead)
Female/Male Half-elf Druid
Male Warforged Monk
Female/male (opposite of druid) something caster

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:48 pm

Tieflings absolutely won't fly in a children's cartoon. Sure, Raven was the daughter of Trigon the demon lord, but she did not have horns. Whether there are demons in the group or not, no one can look like a demon. Your resident spooky character can be a dark elf or a wererat, but they can't be a tiefling.

-Username17

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:56 pm

Hm. I think that's really going to depend on the art-style and the age demographic, but at the very least, male tiefling definitely won't work for a cartoon. You could probably cutify a female tiefling's features enough such that they didn't give the impression of sinister evil at all and abslutely no one would be bothered, but the gloomy tiefling-dude is definitely out. And Lago pointed out with female tiefling caster, we just have another Raven, so...

Which means the tiefling options are quickly narrowing themself down to nothing. Maybe female tiefling rogue/assassin, but that means shuffling or losing the drow or something like that, and in all honesty I think the drow is a safer bet than a tiefling.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:58 pm

DSMatticus wrote:Unless you really do go the KOS-MOS style robot, but that's... not very authentic to the setting. Which is fine and not-fine. Too human is weird for D&D, too non-human will make it a difficult female character.

If you have a warforged you really do need to do this, sadly. You can give some weird 'tells' like opening up the skin to vent steam or bleeding oil, but remember the first rule I gave. You could also do a homunculus(sp) or golem if that's too 'out there'.

I can't say much about half-orcs. There are a few races that, somehow, completely fail to flavorfully appeal to me as a player, so I'm just going to stay quiet about them because I have no way of gauging how 'good' a character a half-orc would make. Or a dwarf. Or a half-elf, to a lesser extent. Those races just have limited appeal to me.

The race in of itself is not actually supposed to draw any attention. The reason why I said halforc/halfelf is because you actually want characters that are indistinguishable from humans unless the plot requires it. If Teen Titans had Starfire AND Martian Manhunter (or appropriate facsimile thereof) there would be too much attention that needed to be split away from them so that neither could get plot hooks. However the drawback of making them totally human is that you cut yourself off from plot hooks. Robin and Beast Boy never had any episodes where the characters' heritages were all that important, which was a pity since those were the best ones. Ideally you want characters where you can 'turn off' the orciness or elfiness or dwarfiness as the plot demands. You want the number of characters where race matters for them constantly to be no more than two in a five-person ensemble. You do want to have a character that will occasionally comment on how hypocritical the 'good guy' races are and how desperate the plight of the goblins are or a character who will get the team an audience with the High Elven Archdruid because they're the person's aunt, but you don't want them to constantly have the 'I'm an elf!' or 'I'm a dwarf!' thrown in your face.

As far as leads go, I don't think that it's actually a good idea. Yes, you will want a character that is the nominal leader and nominal backup leader, but there should not be a character or two whom the plot primarily revolves around. I personally think that this was Avatar: The Last Airbender's biggest weakpoint, because Zuko had a shelf life and Aang wasn't a conflicted/witty/interesting enough character to have the focal viewpoint on him constantly in the first place. But this is just a problem for ensemble leads in general.

Teen Titans totally had the right idea in not designating any lead characters from the start. If they did we wouldn't have gotten the totally righteous Terra/Titans East/Apprentice/Trigon arcs. Or if we did have them they would have been neutered by viewing them through the eyes of a character whom the plot didn't revolve around. Even after five seasons the characters didn't feel stale. Which is a masterstroke considering how small of a relevant secondary cast that show has.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:09 pm

The assassin character should not be the Dark Magical Girl character. You need a sneaky Magnificent Bastard character in the group like Thief or Garak or Shikamaru or Urahara and this is totally incompatible with the demands of that role.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:11 pm

The being pretty rule only really applies to female characters. Male characters can get away with being less than physically appealling - I think the standard warforged male is something you could pull off and people would like. Polished a little bit - they still have to look cool, of course, but pretty and cool aren't necessarily the same thing.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:18 pm

DSMatticus wrote: The being pretty rule only really applies to female characters. Male characters can get away with being less than physically appealling

If you were going to have a show with people in their 30s (or older) like on Star Trek then yes they can get away with being ugly-but-cool or even downright ugly like Chewbacca. But as Cyborg has showed us if you have teenage or college-aged protagonists they need to be pretty regardless of gender.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:21 pm

Actually, lampshading the "I'm a Dwarf!" character could be okay. Or even present "I'm a Dwarf!" as a bad trait, and have a character arc be about growing out of reliance on labels.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:28 pm

Durkon has showed us the approach of 'I'm a bog-standard stereotypical dwarf ain't that wacky?!' just plain doesn't work. Lampshading something that's annoying doesn't always make it okay; sometimes (usually) it just makes it worse because it makes it feel like the authors are grating on the audience to demonstrate their own cleverness because they caught the thing that needed to be lampshaded but decided to keep it in anyway. For reasons.

fectin wrote:Or even present "I'm a Dwarf!" as a bad trait, and have a character arc be about growing out of reliance on labels.

Which would be hypocritical from a metafictional standpoint. Not because the other exotic race party members wouldn't agree with that moral in-story, but because one of D&D's selling points is 'look at all of these weird, cool races and their weird yet cool ways'.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu May 26, 2011 9:13 pm

It would not be hypocritcal. It's a growth from "Dwarves don't like heights" to "I don't like heights". The first is hiding behind stereotypes and stifles character growth. You can't have the dwarf overcome their fear of heights then, because it makes them less of a dwarf, by thier own internal logic. The second position is still the dwarf embracing his cultural norms but as a personal choice. That's a much more powerful position.
Also, it means the dwarf's character is much more three dimensional, not less: He doesn't like beer because he's a dwarf (Durkon style stereotyping), he likes beer because it's delicious (completely understandable). It's like Australians never say they like marmite because of their nationality, they talk about its amazing flavor.